It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. Typically, narrower lobe separation develops peak torque at lower rpm and widening the separation tends to build peak torque higher in the rpm range. When degreeing in the camshaft, you are making sure the intake centerline is precisely where the cam is intended to be. I though my car would have a nice rough idle with the solid cam with a tight LSA I put in my car, its go a slight lope to it, but it pulls hard. The engine has AFR heads, Crane rockers, a TCI balancer, a Scat Rotating assembly with Mahle pistons, an Edelbrock RPM Air-Gap intake, an MSD ignition, and an Aeromotive fuel system. ditto with the above. Enter lobe separation angle. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. A narrower LCA will increase valve overlap and close the (intake) valve earlier, which explains the typical rougher idler and more midrange behaviour. Whatever you do, stay under 270 advertised duration and shoot for a 110 lobe separation. 09 All testing was run through a set of 1 3/4-inch long-tube headers and 3-inch exhaust. 112 will have a smoother idle, a wider power band, and will work better with fuel injection. 112-110 Deg. So the wider LSA introduces a broader and therefore longer torque band.. Higher lift and longer duration profiles add power, but do so at higher engine speeds (especially true of duration). Howards Cam Vs Comp Cam: Which Is The Best Option For You? Like one cam is 112 degree and the next is 108 the 108 cam will allow less "leakage"? 110 LSA: However, if you look at the rate of cranking compression at 110 LSA, you will find a reduced compression rate from the standard cranking compression PSI level. Torsion Beam Vs Multi Link: Who Wins the Battle? However, it is fixable. All three terms are similar, as they all relate to the relationship between the centerline of the Intake lobe and the centerline of the Exhaust lobe. The lower the lobe seperation,, ie. I'd run it, just be sure to check valve to piston clearance, coil bind and retainer to guide boss/seal clearance. Is it a hydraulic roller as well? O onovakind67 Registered Joined Dec 14, 2001 6,242 Posts 106 LSA: There is an increasing chance of engine knock at the 106 lobe separation angle. However, the plentiful exhaust overlap (31 degrees) meant there was lots of exhaust dilution at low engine speed and high vacuum. Lobe Separation Angle, or LSA, is the number of degrees that separate the peak lift points of the cam's intake and exhaust lobes. In this segment, I am going to compare those two lobe separation angles based on a couple of mechanical factors. Elle concerne 264 taxons des degrs divers. BUT, 114 will have more vacuum at idle, which will work better with some fuelinjection. I think the compression ratio has something to do with LSA too. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. All rights reserved. It idles very well at 650 rpm with a nice lope and runs strong. I just bought a 86b Webcam with 112 lobe centers for my 2276. Hey guys, can anyone tell me how rough of a idle a cam would be with a 108 lobe separation? Bolander says those cams help promote torque in a controlled and predictable manner, especially in no-wake zones and around the docks. Tight LSA cams make excellent low-end torque and have a beautiful power curve. That was all, and we have already reached the concluding point. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. 108 vs 112 lobe seperation. Since we were only changing the lobe separation angle, we had to make sure every variable (air/fuel, timing, water, air, and oil temps) was identical during testing. And better gas mileage. I do believe that stock VW seperation is 108 and 112 is used alot in turbo and midrange cams for VW's while 106 is used for the top end cams. While lift and duration are most often discussed when talk turns to cam timing, there is a third variable that has a decided effect on both power and personality. 05 To ensure our stroker combo had sufficient airflow, we installed a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC-ported LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. Bad idea in my view. The SAME can be said. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. What brand and what are the specs on your cam, 4-linked72? A cams Lobe center angle equals intake centerline plus exhaust . Anybody here run a 108 LSA? I am pretty sure, right now, you find yourself in the middle of the rising debate of 106 vs 110 lobe separation angle. The 112-degree cam offered nearly all the low-speed and mid-range torque of the 108 cam but the peak power suffered above 5,200 rpm. The other thing is that you can make more power with a smaller aftermarket cam. These favorable mechanical features depict the powerful acceleration capacity of the engine with higher oil and energy consumption rate, overheating problems, and other mechanical problems. Call for details with your specific combination. or just enough to keep the neighbors pissed? Aluminum flywheel & pullies. The tighter the lobe separation angle, the peakier the power curve will be, confirms Bolander. If the cylinder heads are the lungs of an engine, the camshaft is the brain. 2023 Power Automedia. probably just enough to get me in trouble.. indeed, expect low vacuum with anything lower than 110-ish. As a result of this fall, the idle of the engine has to face suffering quite often. Your email address will not be published. But, you may find it quite shocking that the piston-to-valve clearances decreasing rate raises the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. The 290 advertised duration and 114 lobe separation would contribute to a lazy power curve. Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. A cam with a 112 lobe center will pull approximately 16-20" of vacuum, which is good for power brakes. A tighter LSA is always going to have more overlap, which allows the exhaust and intake systemif they're tuned wellto work together.". Because the lobes are closer together on the 101 LSA cam, the intake closing point is advanced (closes earlier) and the piston has more time to build compressionexactly what the gauge showed. The intake air control valve (IAC), which regulates idle speed, also has to work overtime and often attempts to "catch" the idle, but usually shoots high or low. Everyone has a different idea of gentle.While its true that the duntov cam may seem rough in a 283 it is still a factory offering and they never go to radical on there profiles for street cars.If you want a rough idle, try a 283 with a .550'lift roller and 13.5 to 1 compression,THATS ROUGH. Well get out of that stocker and build a hipo motor for your VW. NOTE: Classic Inlines stocks the above profiles in 108, 110, and 112 lobe centers. 110 LSA: On the contrary, it is pretty unpleasant to inform you that the efficient compression rate decreases at 110 LSA. Despite no changes in lift or duration, this cam sounded much more aggressive than the other two with wider LSAs. 554"/577" lift. However it is at the expense of a small amount of bottom end power and idle quality, due to the increased overlap. 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree) LSA (green lines) lost considerable torque to the other two cams. AquaTraction Vs SeaDek: Which One Is Better For you? It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. Split duration/lift only helps when your intake/exhaust ratio is low on the exhaust side. That lopey idle that is universally loved, and part of the allure of a tight LSA cam, is actually misfire caused from a combination of exhaust dilution in the intake manifold and poor cylinder filling at idle. It has been tried in the VW business earlier, but then they gave it up because of problems with too high temperatures around the exhaust valve, causing them them to break. 110 LSA: On the contrary, if you look at the powerband at 110 LSA, the powerband is comparatively broader. I normally run a 106 to a 108 because I like the "hit" a tighter LC cam has when it come up on the came. . Simply put, the lobe separation angle (LSA) is a measurement of how the intake and exhaust lobes are phased with each other. 4 Impaired episodic memory and semantic knowledge are common in TLE, although dysexecutive traits . by 3V Performance Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:38 pm, Post Ultimately, it comes down to how you want the engine to run, the car's intended purpose, and what you are willing to tolerate. When choosing a cam, power gains shouldn't be the only consideration. The 114o lobe will add a lot more vacuum at idle. If all the specs remained the same what will going from a 110 to a 112 lsa do to driving characteristics? The Crane has a smoother idle, broader power band, and . This has been my long time understanding! also,, wider will produce a wider and more flat torque curve that doesn't fall off as abruptly up top rpms. A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. If a street car has smaller lift and duration numbers, they might run 112 or 114. by mike thompson Tue May 13, 2003 4:03 am, Post So, which is better? To illustrate the differences offered by changes in the LSA, we had Crane cams grind us three cam profiles that shared the same lift and duration figures, but differed only in the LSA. Vintage/Classic/Historical Engine Tech, 3V Performance Engine & Valve train Development, Race Cars & Parts - For Sale or Wanted. The lumpy-idling 101 LSA cam churned out an average of 484.0 hp at 6,100 rpm with 493.9 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm. by Kdub Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:05 pm, Post Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. 106 LSA: The scale of efficient compression rises at 106 LSA. Save Share. You can research your heads to find out where yours are, but honestly I don't think it will be worth the effort on a tow vehicle. If you shift at 7500-7800 add 4-6 degrees to both intake and exhaust and spread the lobe separation to 108-110. Again, these are general bits of conventional wisdom. A 112 LSA would be better if I had an automatic, but the engine builder (who has built many, many drag racing engines)told me I would have much faster acceleration with the 108, at the expense of a broader power band of course, but that 108 would not unduly penalize me for the street. by jobes Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:51 pm, Post On the surface, the camshaft's job is simpleopen and close the valvesbut beyond that topical description, it's one of the most mysterious and misunderstood engine components. No, it is not even close to the ultimate performance grind most would have picked. = Tight Below 104 Deg. I also like the 106 lobe separation with the intake on 103. Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. by Hoxviii Mon May 12, 2003 7:50 pm, Post The only reason I . True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. Yearh, I have been reading a lot about this issue. But it is a piece of good news for your engine. Not a HUGE, but a significant difference between 110 and 112, but those are the trends. On a torque graph it tends to resemble a triangular shape.. The extra cubic inches will smooth out a rough idle in a 327. The Idles increasing vacuum improves the idle quality and the engines overall performance. 106 LSA: 106LSA results in a decrease in piston-to-valve clearance. The reduced rate of the EGR effect lowers oxygen circulation in the engines combustion chamber. As the RPM's go up this is not as critical as the higher velocity of the air/fuel moving thru keeps it from getting contaminated. Check out the Comp Cams catalog, even the biggest hydraulic rollers use 110. 108 is very tight producing lower vacuum and more of a 2 stroke "punch" powerband. Builds More High-RPM Power Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clearance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance EFFECTS OF CHANGING LOBE SEPERATION ANGLE (LSA) Tighten (smaller LSA number) Moves Torque to Lower RPM Increases Maximum Torque Narrow Power band Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Increase Chance of Engine Knock Increase Cranking Compression Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. Good luck. For Example: A 110-degree lobe separation means that the peak opening points of the Intake and Exhaust lobes is 110 degrees apart. by mrsmythe Mon May 12, 2003 11:15 am, Post Thanks. thanks. But remember, although a broader powerband has a couple of acceleration advantages, it also comes with a few drawbacks. 110 LSA: On the contrary, at 110 LSA, the engine fails to reach the maximum torque, resulting in a decrease in torque rate. 3.75" stroke= 108 LSA 4.00" stroke= 110 LSA 4.25" stroke= 112 LSA 4.50" stroke= 114 LSA I can see exactly where his theory is coming from. by Kdub Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:20 am, Post It provides a spark plug with the high voltage needed for combustion. How To Properly Replace Ignition CoilsContinue. Professionally ported & polished iron 4V head with titanium intake valves, stainless exhaust, titanium retainers & keepers & dual springs. somthing to that aspect. A wider LSA moves intake- and exhaust-valve events farther apart and creates less overlap, which hurts intake-wave tuning. My engine shop builds all kinds of hot rod motors, and they told me that because I am running a 4 speed manual, I will better be able to take advantage of the 108 LSA. Thanks again. Lucky for us, Brian Tooley Racing stepped up with a dual spring package that allowed us to safely run our 0.624-lift cam. Most cars use more than, Read More Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? It had a robust powerband with tons of usable torque. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. Known as "The Gladiator" around Westech Performance, this Dart SHP blockbased, 370ci, small-block Chevy has made thousands of dyno pulls testing all manner of heads, intakes, cams, and every other crazy thing us magazine folk have coerced Westech's Steve Brul to bolt to it. The 112-degree cam (red lines) picked up much of the torque, but the big winner was the cam with the tightest lobe separation angle. Come here to talk with others who like to drive fast. L'auteur prsente une nouvelle contribution de floristique nord-africaine consacre la flore du massif du Rif et des rgions du nord du Maroc, dans le cadre gographique prdfini par le Catalogue des Plantes vasculaires du Nord du Maroc de Valds et al. by mrsmythe Tue May 13, 2003 5:45 am, Post Lobe separations gives lots of overlap and lobe centers just happens when the grinder decides how the peak of the lobe will arrive on a specific grind by their tooling. not exactly true, Ive seen custom grinds that are on 108 lca, smooth idle, high vacuum an even able to run efi, usually on an off the shelf cam it is true. 2.1.3 Transponder reply modes (air-to-ground) Transponders shall respond to Mode A interrogations in accordance with the provisions of and to Mode C interrogations in accordance . I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. So, this LSA is suitable for your engine and its components. Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again. I forgot to add that poor vacuum is not much of a concern to me because I have no power accessories. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. If it occurs too late, it will lean out the cylinder and greatly hinder the performance of the engine. by Marc Mon May 12, 2003 11:38 am, Post More than any other component, the cam profile determines things like idle quality, mileage, and overall driveability. A wide lobe seperation is not always better than a narrow one, or vise versa. In general, a stock replacement camshaft with duration of less than 200 degrees will have a lobe separation angle of more than 114 degrees. 106 LSA: On the contrary, if we look at the 106 LSA, we will find it more advantageous and energy efficient than the 110 LSA engine. on average with a N/A motor if you stick the two cams in at the track the tighter lsa will be faster at the expense of idle quality. After swimming through the entire article, I hope you are now well aware of the 102 vs 110 lobe separation angle. " - Voltaire. Aug 20, 2006. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. JavaScript is disabled. A cam's lobe separation determines where and for how long peak torque occurs in an engine's rpm range. Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. These issues can often be worked through by an advanced tuner, but always present a challenge and compromise in tuning strategy. The power and torque curve lay directly in between the last two cams, as did the peak horsepower and torque, 488.7 at 6,200 rpm and 487.1 at 4,600 rpm, respectively. It affects the powerband and temperament of a motor more than any other single part, and a slight change can turn a car from a mild-tempered grocery-getter to a downright nasty machine. It should still make close to 600hp and 600tq in my 512" stealth headed big block. Powerband serves a massive contribution to the acceleration car. by trmnatr Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:45 pm, Post Also If you go with 112 lobe centers, you create less valve overlap which will increase your compretion. Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. The ported heads were capable of supporting over 700 hp, so we knew they would not be restrictive on our stroker. 110 for sure. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. "Ninety-nine percent of cranking compression is dictated by static compression ratio and intake-valve closing point," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold.