If the first bullet ricochets off the windshield, the succeeding rounds will make it through. To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as knock-down power. The only thing that can knock a target down is physiological incapacitation or psychological stress. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in New York Times reporter C.J. All rights reserved. One or two out of every twenty or more perfect placement leaves me desirous of a heavy hitter. Not everyone is as capable or as comfortable at shooting a .45ACP as they are a 9mm. Your shots have to count. A .45 ACP will encounter greater resistance than a 9mm, but it also carries more weight, albeit at a slower velocity. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. The 45 1911 did just that. The quibble is over. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. Even minor and common factors can significantly impact the wounding ability of a round, including damage to a hollow point through contact with any intervening material, from glass to bone. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. Is S&W so inferior that our domestic brand was eliminated? There is also the very real factor of life-or-death, fight-or-flight stress. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. and that the data you submit is exempt from Do Not Sell My Personal Information requests. Frank K. Seems to me that when using the same style bullet in the 45 and 9mm the 45 would still beat the 9 in stopping power. When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. Thats my two cents for what its worth. Most people ask to be shot with the 9mm instead of the .45acp. After reading comments from many veterans here, and from what ive seen on the streets, in a true life or death situation give me the largest slug possible. However, from close enough range you could manage. They also have a budget. One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? What I have also seen on the range at 25 yards, while shooting steel silhouette time after time, was the 9mm would fail to kick the silhouette out of the track 7 out of 10 times without placing another shot. The projectile tears through the body causing tissue damage and creating a wound channel. There will always by that guy who can take several shots before dropping, and there will always be that perfect head shot. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. There are an almost equal number of shootings with 9mm that are ended with one or two shots as well. I find that there is a difference when using 9mm vs .45acp. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook, Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. Ive shot both calibers at humans as a soldier and as a LEO and 9mm just doesnt get the same results as 45 in the same number of shots. Core, you touch on something that I have often thought about. I can shoot consistently accurately. I dont know if the recoil might throw me off. No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. Train! My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. I have yet to see this. I know I prefer .45ACP. and I guess $$.. The .45 acp bounced off the helmet at 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards proving that the 9mm with its higher velocity, flatter George. Now call me a troll as I suspect you may be in love with your clunky Glock and .9mm round. Firing Modes: Semi-auto. Lexipol. That is closet weights I can readily come up with from factory offerings. Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. The average criminal etc. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. In winter I concealed carry a 1911. While there are uninformed opinions regarding stopping power, thankfully, there is also plenty of credible research. The reason is recoil. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. laugh at the forensic expert and 2.) He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. The best stopping power is a complex mix of many different factors, including how fast the round is traveling and what it does when it enters the attackers body. While the tissue affected by the temporary cavity isnt completely destroyed like that in the direct path of the bullet, it does suffer trauma, especially if the bullet travels past less-flexible parts of the body, like bone or dense organs like the liver, which can shatter or rupture from the shockwave. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. Shot placement rules. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. If you have to revisit the basics of projectile ballistics, here is a decent place to start. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? I have never shot a people. Oh yeah, I long forgot where I read it. Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. Over the years I have owned and carried many 1911s. One had a 9mm one had a .45who is gonna get up quicker to finish the job. When they enter the body, they spread out into a star-shaped pattern that enhances the damage caused by the wound channel. As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. As for accuracy, I hear a lot of my friends talking about the accuracy of their 45s over a distance compared to my 9 mm, but no one to date has outshot me on the range, and almost all of my friends have switched to a 9 millimeter in the past few years. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. G19 vs custom 1911 equals a big price difference. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). Before he did this there was almost as many different firearms within the department as deputies. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. I am a Force Recon Marine with 10 years of advanced military training and have served 7 separate combat tours. Its only a pistol. I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. This article will define what the question which handgun round has the best stopping power? means, and offer unbiased information that will help the readers to make up their own minds on the subject. WebThe 45 will but them down and bleed them out real quick with a gut shot, the 9mm will have them flopping around and may not stop them from firing back, also from the pools of blood near the bodies the 45 does more damage. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. It depends where they get hit. My father was hit in the arm with a .50 bmg round during the Falklands war and it took his arm off from below the el The ambulance took him away. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. I am a classic ). While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. round, you can see all three effects. Plenty of gang shootings. Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! They argue that the 9mm round has more penetrating power because the round faces less air resistance on its nose as it flies through the air. What kind of insane non-scientific reasoning is this? Sound familiar?? Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. Which is better? Of course, not being in the military, or law enforcement, my goal is no collateral damage! Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. who proved the .45-caliber round has SO MUCH more knockdown power than the 9mm that it only requires one shot to incapacitate a threat? The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. career to carry a Glock 9mm. 45 standard velocity is 850 to 900 fps, NOT 500 fps. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. It worries me that you feel safe carrying a .45 acp around bears and moose. But good luck with and please enjoy the new Glock! You may as well go off and say Ill just take a Judge and shoot .410 buckshot, or .45 long colt if you are trying to inflict the most damage. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. 9mm Luger offers greater magazine capacity and less recoil/more weapon control at a lower cost. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. Was the 357 mag. Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). You can not tell me this otherwise because, I know this for a fact. This is just one of them: https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/. 25 yard 1.52 off hand 5 rnd groups on the nose. SGT SmallwoodUSMC/LTC SmallwoodUSArmy retired. Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. Handgun cartridges just dont do that. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. A high-muzzle bullet, however, destroys whole areas of body. You will find that when tested in this manner the 45acp will out perform the 9mm hands down. I used to work in inner city and poor crime ridden areas when all I had was the 45. Thats not the kind of performance Im looking for. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. and manufacturers. I hadnt even gotten halfway through the article before coming to the same conclusion. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. Of course, smoothly drawing a handgun leads directly to another subject: which holster is best for those concerned with personal protection? Factors like these led to the military adopting the Colt .45 ACP pistol as its standard sidearm in 1911. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. Against bad guys though, gimme a 45 auto. I daily now carry a 9 mm. Copyright 2023 Police1. But the guy kept on coming. The latest testing shows that modern 9mm performs pretty much as well as the other common semi-auto options, and since it carries more rounds and is easier to shoot (and I dont care who you are, but it is easier/faster to shoot compared to the larger calibers), it is fairly sound logic to select the 9mm. Yet the 12 is more powerful and more lead, but one shot can put some on their hind end. If I put p++ in my 9 mm, its going to hurt like hell! It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. I checked him out, and he's legit as far as that title is concerned and where he works. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. Everyone should be mocking the .223 as a pea shooter. According to the song the battle for New Orleans, canonbalks were fired from alligator mouths which showed resourcefulness. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. I have a medical issue that makes it easier for me to carry a double action in a very small package. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. The biggest determining factors were and have always been budget and of course, what the inept FBI is carrying. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. Thank you. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. Two shots were within an inch of his heart. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? I just had to get my 2 cents in. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. unless the guy is coming at you with body armor, if you have more than three bullets in your gun you dont really have a lot to worry about.
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