Water is a severe quenchant that can often lead to warping or cracking. It wont hang long with high-end powder metal steels(a method of making steel using ultra-pure micrograins of steel that are heated and pressed together). Most of these steels are carbon steels, except for CPM MagnaCut (the fancy steel cooked up specifically for knives by Dr. Thomas), which has excellent corrosion resistance. Should have a first draft by the end of next week. While not a powder steel, 154CM is widely used in nicer knives. One important concept I want to hammer home is that there isnt one property that is most important. Each test is done with 3 or more specimens to get a good average. Below shows pictures of a 61 Rc knife that was impacted with a 3/16 rod at different energy levels. thanks thats interesting. Hammering through hickory, digging at roots in sandy soil, and cutting around bone did nothing to chip, dent, or roll the edge of my 3V knives. D2 is mainly considered decent budget steel that comes with better edge retention than the 14C28N. Metallurgy and Testing of Knives and Steel. It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. Do honing steels as used on kitchen knives actually do anything useful? 8am-5pm Saturday. Recommendations are welcome, If you are cutting against metal I would maybe try K390 in a Spyderco or an S110V knife if you need stainless. But a few overly vocal forgers were making claims about it that clearly were not true especially when comparing it to 5160. Here its 8. 1% saltwater will separate between other stainless steels. As a result, there are no production knives with REX 121 steel, though Ferrum Forge used the steel early on in its custom knives and a Kickstarter knife from the Creely Brothers. Let the job at hand be your guide. Below shows approximate maximum hardness vs stainless rating for several stainless knife steels. Knives are one of our oldest tools, so it makes sense that they have evolved into thousands of styles since the first person chipped one out of stone. It richly deserves its reputation for high-quality gained over the years by Sandvik, a Swedish manufacturer of world-renowned steel. YMMV That said, it's not as tough as many other steels and exponentially tougher to sharpen. Short of purposeful abuse, its all but impossible to chip an edge on an INFI blade. just recently the idea occured tome to sharpen a planer blade like a knife and check out how it performs. 14C28N Vs D2 . However, in our testing there is a reduction in toughness by using the high temperature range rather than the low temperature range, such as was found with CPM-CruWear (Z-Wear) or CPM-10V. it seems like all the pieces are in place to develop an algorithm for this. It can dull your edge, cause pitting, and damage the structural integrity of your knife. 14C28N is essentially AEB-L (or perhaps more accurately Sandvik 13C26), but with improved corrosion resistance. we dont know. 1060 Why does Maxamet and Rex 121 stay the same tcc but Zmax drops and 15v goes from below 900 to over? It is among the steel knives with exceptional toughness while maintaining excellent corrosion resistance. They made planer blades out D2 for its edge retention. Softer steel usually forms larger burrs and they are more difficult to deburr. The bump in hardness comes from precipitation of fine carbides in the steel, read an article I wrote on budget steels here, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/26/new-micrographs-of-42-knife-steels/, https://i0.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/stainless-toughness-10-19-21.jpg?w=757&ssl=1, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/10/14/corrosion-resistance-testing/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/03/02/cpm-spy27-experiments-toughness-corrosion-resistance-and-more/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/03/cryogenic-part1/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/10/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-2/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/17/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-3/, The Pros And Cons Of Stainless Steel Copper And Aluminum Brewing Equipment SanctuaryBrewCo, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/. It has a lower hardness and edge retention as compared to the 9Cr knife. Its very hard, tough, and corrosion-resistant. I have a (relatively) short introduction before getting into the ratings with a few important things to put them into context. The excellent corrosion resistance properties of 14C28N are attributed to the high amounts of chromium in its composition. I actually dont recommend that enthusiasts spend all that much time analyzing the exact composition of different steels and trying to guess their properties. The D2, on the other hand, has a thicker and more durable blade that is better suited for tough tasks like chopping wood or prying open cans. Thank you. There you said 7.6 for 420HC. Which one is right for you? Even it enhances corrosion resistance and wear resistance. I measured corrosion resistance of a slightly lower carbon 420 here: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/03/02/cpm-spy27-experiments-toughness-corrosion-resistance-and-more/. The study of steel is now so complex and nuanced that one can acquire a graduate degree in the subject and still learn new things every day. A good quality knife must have sharpness, great edge retention, and a sturdy handle. You can see that 64 Rc AEB-L has both lower toughness and edge retention than 61 Rc MagnaCut, so I feel that in general you get a better sense of where the steels fit with a single point. The hardness of the carbides does not matter much unlike with edge retention. I wont go into detail about those here. Each steel was tested with a knife that was produced just for the test, and then sharpened the same way for each test (15 dps 400 grit CBN sharpening). Copper frame are very sturdy and machine well and take the best patina over time. Its a costly and challenging process, but it makes extremely fine-grained steels, some of the best for knives, and makes some processes that were previously impossible a reality. im led to believe tha the melting procedure is more important with these steels than the exact composition. This is an American-made powder steel produced by Crucible and developed specifically for knives with the aid of the knife guru Chris Reeve (maker of the vaunted Sebenza, among other gems). Spyderco offers this as the high-end steel for many of its evergreen blades, like the Paramilitary 2, Paramilitary 3, Manix 2, and Native 5. However, there are other factors. In many cases the cost of working with the steel for the knife companies is more significant than the cost of the steel itself. There is a powder form, CPM-D2, and PSF27 is also very chemically similar. Generally seen as a slight upgrade to the 440C/VG-10/ATS-34 caliber of steel, its a decent all-around steel with good corrosion resistance, decent toughness, and only modest hardness. However the 14c28n steel would be great for an EDC knife with typical usage. If you shop for knives based strictly on steel, you might be disappointed. Vancron would work well in a kitchen knife. D2 has a relatively high amount of carbon in its composition (1.55%), more than twice as much as AEB-L (0.68%), but most of that carbon goes into making chromium carbides instead of into solution in the steel matrix, leaving D2 with only ~0.5% C in solution and very large carbides that are good for wear resistance but bad for toughness. Great for tensile strength and Edge retention. Also D2 is not stainless as at least 5% of its chromium is tied up in carbides where it doesnt help prevent corrosion. Rex 121 23.5% vanadium carbide, 4% molybdenum/tungsten carbide (M6C), Conventional Ingot vs Powder Metallurgy Carbide Structure. Steels like CPM MagnaCut, CPM M4, CPM 4V, and CPM CruWear fit in this category. Now 14c28n is IMO the best budget steel out there. But Ive found it lacking in hardness, even when compared to cheaper steels like AUS-8. Very much appreciate you. Sandvik later came out with 14C28N which is a slightly improved version of 13C26. also the angle is by far the most important factor in catra testing, so such results might be irrelevant. Almost all consumer-grade pocket knives, EDC knives, fixed blade knives, etc will be in the range of a Rockwell Hardness rating of 54 to 65 HRC. There is one exception: Bucks 420HC (Buck and onlyBuck) is produced using a proprietary heat treatment. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. All Rights Reserved. Could you please compare it to Shirogami #1 and Agomi #1, I didnt find anything in terms of grain size ragarding thoese steels on the Internert. Uddeholm lists it as somewhat worse in toughness than A2 but somewhat better in wear resistance. I did a test with knives in 440A (stainless), D2 (high alloy steel with some corrosion resistance), and 1095 (no corrosion resistance). Like S90V, its a high-hardness steel, but its more balanced than S90V. And below shows a chart of carbide hardness, the equation we created to predict edge retention based on edge angle, hardness, and carbide volumes, and then the chart showing the good correlation: TCC (mm) = -157 + 15.8*Hardness (Rc) 17.8*EdgeAngle() + 11.2*CrC(%) + 14.6*CrVC(%) + 26.2*MC(%) + 9.5*M6C(%) + 20.9*MN(%) + 19.4*CrN(%). Question. Among Vancron SuperClean, Agomi #1 and Shirogami #1, Which one tends to have finer grain size and Sharper edge? Plus the charts get messier, and I dont always have data for a wide range of hardness values. Ive seen more talk and some articles regarding the use of AI to come up with new potential drug molecules, polymeric materials, etc. Anthony Sculimbrene authors the blog EverydayCommentary.com. Keeping in mind that I have a well rounded Set of sharpening skills. ), intended use will give you all the answers. While 14C28N and D2 are both pretty to look at, buyers always regard one over the other. The chart below has dotted lines which indicate the average effect of hardness for any given steel. 14c28n steel would be a great pick thanks to its high retention and corrosion, it would be great for a normal EDC knife. Things are similar with resistance to chipping and edge deformation. This showed that XHP and ZDP-189 have significantly lower corrosion resistance than other stainless steels. Coarse-carbide tool steel grades. For the steels that I rated I give them a single rating rather than a range based on different heat treatments that can be performed. G10 The ratings I have are for an optimal heat treatment. 14c28n is the most popular material for the knife: stainless steel and made by the Swedish company. They are usually chosen for their looks rather than performance. Most of these steels rely on particle metallurgy and are therefore more expensive. Therefore, you cannot purchase the knife for use in corrosive environments. The knife does dull faster. The big difference in properties vs the low alloy steels, however, are the harder carbides that are found in these steels. 1. i understand the samples were treated in the same way. Both of those things are no longer an issue as I now have way too many articles and a book. Generally this is code for difficulty in abrading away steel. The only thing putting me off immediately buying the p135 is the 14c28n steel. Each of these contributes to a knifes overall performance. Ruike Sandvik 14c28n vs D2 looking at getting a nice larger flipper for a little under 100 AUD. This guide explains important features to consider when buying a new knife for the outdoors. I mean the box cutter type, with the replaceable trapezoidal blades. 14C28N is thus ideal for use in corrosive environments and challenging applications. Im looking forward to seeing if it does as well in full production. I like it in the Seki City Spydercos, but I would like to know what ratings you would give it. D2 steel 14C28N is a stainless steel that was developed specifically for use in knives. 440A Extra kudos for your mathmatical steel composition to edge holding model thats really impressive work. looking at getting a nice larger flipper for a little under 100 AUD. D2 is a tool steel used in industrial settings. PESR would be an interesting topic too (also tied to LC200N). document.getElementById( "ak_js" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Its not a regression line, it is just a line through the best steels. S110V has improved corrosion resistance at the cost of some toughness compared to S90V. This is the steel used in Swiss Army knives and is excellent for beginner sharpeners. I was recommended the Rat 1 in D2 and I also found that I really like the design of the Ruike p135 and p128. MC66 The 14C28N stainless steel from Swedish manufacturer Sandvik is considered an upgrade to their 13C26 steel (described below). Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. its like with cars, most of them are not a corvette or a porsche. When it comes to handle material, both knives have options available in either plastic or metal. Any thoughts how Sleipner might fare in the ratings? a burr might have developped on some of the steels and not on others, it might have ben reduced or even removed by the process. Ease of Sharpening: One advantage of 8Cr13MoV is that it is easier to sharpen than D2 steel. To reiterate the clearer part, I wonder if toughness increases faster than edge retention decreases as an edge gets thicker. Its hard enough, tough enough, and stain-resistant enough. This steel, as the name implies has a professional styling to it. 9Cr is the top end of the series and is quite good as good or better than AUS-8. Not as tough as the best carbon steels, it's tougher than most . Its in the same class as Vanadis 8 and 10V. compare different heat treats of the same component, it lacks a theoretical foundation and its not clear how to relate it to the real world. It rusts like nothing Ive seen before and it dull just by looking at it. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Most edge retention tests isolate wear resistance or how long it takes abrasives to dull your edge in whatever youre cutting. Read our full Sobata 398 review here. The most balanced is CPM-MagnaCut which is in an area all by itself on the chart. The most traditional models of pocket knives have different parts, such as the handle and cutting performance. Marco, BSc Chem. 1095 D2 steel also offers similar toughness levels as the 14c28n steel, so both aren't really prone to chipping with proper use. Notice that with the same edges on the same media, the 9Cr18Mov from Real Steel performs about as well as the average Chinese D2. Continue with Recommended Cookies. whats even more disturbing is that cvn and fracture toughness sometimes (often?) I especially appreciate the geometry/edge retention/toughness comparison with photos. As of November 2020, this is Spyderco-exclusive steel. You said wood is not a particularly abrasive material and in absolute terms that is very true. Sandvik 14C28N steel is better than D2 steel in corrosion resistance and toughness. This refers to the angle of your edge and the thickness of the knife behind the edge. At the end of the article I gave a list of reasons why I hadnt made my own ratings chart, two big reasons were: 1) I didnt yet have articles explaining what edge retention and toughness even is (this was early on in Knife Steel Nerds), 2) I didnt have good experimental numbers on many steels. Old time 8670, 5160 (known to ignoramuses as 51shitty) and 52100 are excellent choices and arguably better choices than 80crv2. 14C28N VS D2 The two sheets of steel are comparable in terms of toughness and corrosion resistance. For example, the Si space is blank for several of the carbon steels because they have a relatively wide acceptable range, not because the element isnt added. Different companies can vary some between each other making the same product, while a single company is going to be more consistent. Or even a 7 in both categories. Is it similar but worse or better at one of the 3 things? There are still a few things I dont know but we have enough information to make educated guesses where data isnt available. The edge retention numbers are normalized to the hardness of the closest toughness test. CPM-3V is a powder metallurgy contender in this category. Jeff I worked at a company that heat treated D2 (1.55% C) planer blades for a company that built wood working equipment for commercial shops. I would think that the label applies to either the line or the outlier, but probably not both unless the outlier is a measurement error. Another is that 8Cr13MoV is a generic name for a specific composition while AUS-8 is a name of a product by a specific company. Custom maker Brian Trudeau uses Nitro V, and Massdrops Perpetua design is the first production knife to sport it. how much more can you bend/pry with it? Tough steel can handle impacts without gross chipping or a tip breaking off. I have a Spyderco K390 knife and I cut leather with it as it is only .090 thick and I seldom have to strop it on 1 micron diamond compound on leather. Here, we break down how to choose a flashlight, including best flashlight LEDs, batteries, designs, and more. Importing steel from Europe to the USA, or vice versa, generally increases the cost. If you have a favorite steel, rock on! Therefore you will use it for a long time without requiring frequent sharpening. There are significant differences between them because 14C28N is stainless steel, while D2 steel is a semi-stainless tool steel. The sharpening makes the knives easy to maintain because they dull faster and require frequent sharpening. 14C28N steel is not very hard steel which makes it easier to sharpen. There are a lot of different types of steel out there . Privacy Policy. Im a layman trying to understand what makes the best steel for my use. It confirms what I always suspected and what anyone could have figured out by reading the technical data. Though technically not a stainless steel at least 14% chromium, and D2 usually has 12% it's relatively corrosion-resistant. If you need something that soaks up abuse, try 3V. Furthermore, because of its ultrahigh hardness, Maxamet is very prone to corrosion, probably worse than 1095. ZDP-189 can tarnish, though not as easily as 3V. The high hardness makes it all but impossible to sharpen and machine. In addition, According to Sandvik, 14C28N steel is easy to work on, reducing production costs and hence affordable knives. After the steel is quenched it is reheated to a lower temperature to increase toughness and decrease hardness. However, this edge retention comes at the cost of sharpening ease for D2. There are a few aspects to your question, I think. On the spreadsheet, youve grouped AUS-8 and 8Cr13MoV. Some steel companies charge more than others. The benefit of this, of course, is that the steel holds an edge for a very, very long time. D2 steel is more durable than 14C28N, but it scores lower in terms of ease of sharpening and corrosion resistance. LC200N has similar properties to those two but with saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. The main downside is the steel is more difficult to heat treat and cant go harder than about 60 or perhaps 61 Rc. at least it has some vanadium over the 420hc. I guess the question is whether toughness increases faster than edge retention decreases. If you want for best steel 14c28n and others steel then you can ready 14c28n vs 420hc review. Therefore I will be showing the ratings of the steels graphically in terms of toughness-edge retention balance, where steels that are high and to the right have the best combination, and you choose the steel based on the level of toughness or edge retention necessary for the knife. A2 is a tool steel renowned for toughness. Like 154CM, its a good compromise between all three steel attributes. Steels with only vanadium carbides have the best balance of properties because the hardness of carbide matters for edge retention but doesnt for toughness. They lack the carbon necessary to hold an edge, even during mild use. This is to keep the focus on the elements that are making the biggest difference. The main downside is the steel is more difficult to heat treat and can't go harder than about 60 or perhaps 61 Rc. 14C28N steel holds good hardness. There is no single category that means that a steel is more premium or better than another. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. If you are a newbie to steel knives and the differences are not yet clear, come with us to the next section as we look into each knifes characteristics, pros, and cons. Around 61 Rc usually. 14c28n vs. D2 Steel D2 is as rigid as 14c28n, thus has almost equal edge retention abilities. as you mentioned catra indicates the edge angle as being by far the most important variable. Most production knives are more than thick enough at the edge to accommodate a regrind to significantly improve performance, and its a lot cheaper than buying a new knife a lot of the time. In many cases, the D2 edge sharpness may last a bit longer. In this article, we will discuss the characteristics, pros, cons, and differences between 14C28N and D2 knives to help to make the right choice. and corrosion resistance than the 420HC steel. But its lightyears ahead of the alternatives, specifically titanium-bladed knives. I have not provided a rating for ease in sharpening. I do not have rust issues with it (as long as I have a good finish) some heavy stonewashed finishes rust easier. Though technically not a stainless steel at least 14% chromium, and D2 usually has 12% its relatively corrosion-resistant. Ive found S35VN less chippy even at the same hardness. That says to me theres a measurable abrasive quality to wood for sure. Toughness 3, Edge Ret 8, Cor Res 4? I was just comparing AEB-L and 14c28n to decide which steel to get for my next knife project and although 14c28n seems to be a bit more abrasion resistant, my primary goal is toughness and edge stability. (Some crazy folks clean their Swiss Army knivesin adishwasher. The very good toughness of MagnaCut meant that it didnt chip despite this relatively high hardness and the difficulty of the test. Steel with high wear resistance is more costly to manufacture, as the knife company goes through more abrasives to grind the knives. Three main characteristics differentiate steels from one another: corrosion resistance, hardness, and toughness. Hello LARRIN, do you have a Rough estimate on when ApexUltra (as well as more Magnacut) will become available? 14C28N vs D2: Overview 14C28N steel is a high-end stainless steel created by the Swedish company Sandvik. The most significant cost increase comes from powder metallurgy, used to create most of the expensive knife steels. With a high level ofedge retention, corrosion resistance, and toughness, it does most everything quite well. 14C28N is stainless steel, and its knives offer excellent rust resistance and toughness than D2 steel. I think this website is aimed at dispelling these kinds of assertions. But which? I like it. Nitro V is also significantly cheaper than many other steels with this level of performance. I see tables that compare Toughness,Edge Retention,Corrosion Resistance. Properties: 14C28N: D2: Edge retention: 4/10: 7/10: Ease of sharpening: 6/10: 3/10: Corrosion resistance: 4/10: 4/10: Toughness: CROMOVA The ultra high corrosion resistance steels Vanax or LC200N max out around 60-61 Rc instead. On the other hand small but mighty, the pocket knife provides both in professional performance and in arresting good looks. Hi Larrin, thanks so much for writing this blog and putting so much reliable information into such an accessible form.
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